Gifts and Passions Profile, 24toDouble, Richard Chancy, Jerry Lawson

24D 27: Live 24toDouble Members Q&A – March 2019

24toDouble Members Live Q&A – March 2019

Easter is just around the corner!  What can you do to prepare?

  • Jerry says to always act like a church double your size, how do you do that without being off-putting to people?
  • What is the relationship between the admin person on the team and the Five Fold Leadership?
  • When rebranding my church, should I change locations?
  • Thinking for a Change by John Maxwell 
  • It: How Churches and Leaders Can Get It and Keep It by Craig Groeschel 
  • I have a small group of people.  Should I go ahead and start the program now, or should I wait until I have more people?
  • Where do I start to jump into 24toDouble?
  • Should we start with Module 0 or Module 1?
  • How do you get people involved with 24toDouble Gifts and Passions Profile who are not the church staff?


Transcript +

Better to just be staffed. But, in any case, we started running into, again, a couple weeks later, we have a mass influx of kids at the 9:15 service.


You absolutely can't have a lesser service because as you said, Jeff, the first time guests, that's the only service they know. So, all of a sudden, to them, they come to the 9:15, you don't have children's ministry, well, this church doesn't believe in children. So, you really can't do that.

As bad as I hate to say it, Jeff, I'd have to talk more offline but it sounds like you might just have to create space. You might have to split those children's services into multiple rooms or get a bigger room because if you had one service that was trending up and it was bigger than the other, then, you might could talk to some volunteers and key leaders and get them to move for you. Again, your coalition of the willing would do that.

If you're at 80% capacity in parking, in adult worship or in children's worship, then, you're either gonna have to get a bigger building or split those rooms up or add an additional service.

My battle's not with space. My battle is with getting people to serve.


That's where I'm running into kid's church workers.


You know what you might do? I like to, I call this casting multiple nets. We're recruiting new leaders every Sunday because we're doing Pastor's Breakfast. We're gift testing people. We are inspiring people to serve that way.

Then, I like to, also, ... Easter is a great time to cast another net where you get ... In fact, I'll get up this Sunday and I'll tell them, "We're four weeks out from Easter, we're gonna see more people come to faith on one day than on any other day of the year. I need you to serve. I need you to jump on board. We're gonna have this one big recruiting effort. This is the only time of the year you have to serve."

Now, deep in my heart, I hope they stay on board. I'm gonna treat them like they're on board forever. But just to hook them, I'm pushing like that. We'll do that in addition to Pastor's Breakfast. Then, we'll also do ... We have something called All Team Rallies that happen four times a year where all the teams come together for an evening rally and they compete against each other. One of the competition points is shoulder tapping. So, who brought the most new people who aren't serving in an area of ministry. My point being is we want, Jeff, to have a really clean system that runs every week and it's always working. But, then, we have to augment it from time to time with some additional sermon series that's focused on serving or some of these other things I've talked about.


I'm actually very interested in how you're running that competition thing. That would be great if maybe even after something somebody could send an email out, kinda what a schedule like that looks like. That would be really beneficial us. I'd like to look into that more.

At this point, too, we are running the two services. We're doing Pastor's Breakfast and then, we started the 100 Courses on Sunday afternoon. We only do the one breakfast. We used to do two. The second breakfast was Gift Assessment Breakfast. Now, we've rolled all that into the 100 classes.

Yeah. I think that's a great idea. Are you doing that every week?

Yes. Every week and then every fifth Sunday, we do water baptisms. So, we've gotta water baptism coming up this Sunday.

Yeah. Okay.

That's the system and anything you can do to augment the system with additional ways to recruit. I have always used my bully pulpit to just cast vision and challenge people. I don't just rely on the system to do it. I wanna good, solid system in place. That solves about 80% of my problems. But, then, I'll use my bully pulpit to cast vision from the pulpit to talk to people one on one, try to recruit, and try to push people in there. Sorta strong arm them in, to get them to help me in those areas.

Great. All right. Thank you. Appreciate it.

The only thing I would ask, right there, Jerry, one of the things, I feel like we should, as leaders, which everybody on this call is, we should look at every challenge as an opportunity to lead people. The reason I'm saying that right here is it feels like, Jeff, this is a great time for you to go back to your team with some ideas. But, also, get them in an envrironment where they start thinking. Because what I've noticed, as a leader, is if I bring solutions to my team all the time, they never think. They just wait on me for the solution. The big thing about 24toDouble is to get smart people in a room thinking. You know, thinking about what are all the ways ... I'm going through this with my church right now where we just don't have a great funnel for getting leaders into our student ministries. By that I mean we need hundreds of leaders every year in the student ministry. We don't have an organized like, "Okay, we're gonna stand on stage. We're gonna do a call to action."

What does that call to action look like? What are we calling them to do? What's the next step? Then, how do we go from there? Mapping out, like strategically, what every step of the process. The beautiful thing about 24toDouble is that's what it's designed for is to bring people around to have those conversations. To think how do they go from a pew to a volunteer team. How do they go from a volunteer team to small group?

I think it's a great time to leverage that. What do you think, Jerry?

Yeah. No, that's absolutely right.

This whole thing is relational. If you can find the influencer in that group and start making the problem our problem ... I like what you said about empowering other people to be problem solvers or thinkers because my personality is to jump in there and solve the problem. That will cause your team to sit back and let you solve all the problems.

If you can come alongside of somebody. It's very empowering when I, the senior pastor, will walk up to a volunteer in children's ministry or something like that, just say, "Hey, I need your help. I've got this thing and I can't get it figured out. Man, you've got your finger on the pulse."

It makes them feel good. So, they become a partner in solving that problem. If you find those people who have been gifted in administration or teaching, they are problem solvers, by nature. They're gonna wanna figure it out. Recruiting them, personally, not just to serve but to be a leader and a problem solver, will help you get there, as well.

Awesome. Okay. Next question here. I think this is Oliver.

It is. Hi, guys. Thanks for taking my call.

What's up?

Hey, I had a few questions. I'll prioritize them. You can cut me off when appropriate.

We are getting ready to start our Pastor's Meal here in two weeks. Not this Sunday but next Sunday. At this point, while we will be using it as an assimilation tool, it's probably, primarily because we're just getting these things up and running. It's primarily something that's gonna serve as kind of an on-ramp into service and into the Gift Test, all those things for those who are here right now.

One thing I'm struggling with right now is the balance between, "Hey, this is an event designed for you. It's gonna help you figure out your destiny and all kind of the rah rah behind it," versus, "Hey, this is your church. We really ... It's almost an expectation that you do come to this, at some point."

If there was any guidance on some kind of balance between, "Yeah, this is exciting. It's designed for you. It's fun, interactive," and, "We really do need you to be here," type thing.

All right, so -

... If that makes any sense.

Yeah. Let me start right there.

What you wanna do is you wanna establish culture. You wanna say ... Culture is, by definition, the way we do things around here. That's the definition of culture. The way we do things around here. You wanna establish that. Pastor's Meal is what we do. That's step one.

You're talking about it, not so much as, "I'm trying to get you there," or, "I'm trying to talk you into it."

But, "Have you done it yet? Have you been to Pastor's Meal yet? What day did you go to Pastor's Meal?"

It becomes a part of sermons. Make sure it's a part of your sermons. Make sure you, again, because you're shifting and these are new things for some of your team members who've been around a long time, you talk to them the same way we were talking about Jeff's children's workers. Talk to people and say, "Hey, we're trying to shift the culture. I need you as a team leader, to be talking to your team."

Another thing we've done is we don't let you serve until you've been to Pastor's Breakfast. You can't volunteer until you've been to Pastor's Breakfast. So, that becomes another standard for who we are.

I learned a long time ago, Oliver, I'm a much better preacher than I am promoter. So, I don't get up and announce things. If it's worthy of me announcing it, I'm gonna get a scripture and a story and I'm gonna preach it. The Bible says, "Jesus never taught without a story."

He was The Word of God, so, He never taught without The Word and a story. So, I'm not gonna announce the Pastor's Meal, I'm gonna preach a Pastor's Meal. I'm gonna have a Scripture. I'm gonna have a story of somebody who was touched by Pastor's Meal or something to do with it. Even if I'm starting it for the very first time, I can still come up with a story about connections and things like that.

I've just changed over the last five years, five years or so. I just quit with the announcements and promotion and I've said if it's worthy of doing, then it should be biblical. If I can't find a sermon for it, then, why are we doing it, anyways? I preach it, man. I put it on my preaching calender. It's a major part of what I do. This weekend, I'm talking about the worship experience. Why you should make it a priority. It's one of our four big things. We say at Daystar that matters most to us. I preach those four big things which is weekend worship, Pastor's Breakfast, serving, being on the Dream Team, and being in a small group. Those four things. So, I don't ask people to be on the Dream Team. I preach. I preach that. I don't ask people to join a small group. I preach koinonia. I did it last weekend. I preached the Greek word koinonia, fellowship, which means coming together like a family and growing and strengthening each other.

I don't promote and beg people to go into anything. I establish that we are believers and this is what believers do.

Yeah. Thank you. That's helpful, for sure.


Yeah, thank you. Do I have time for another question or so?

Yeah, yeah.

Okay, great.

Jerry, I was, I think it was module five I was just listening to this morning which was working a little ahead of where we are. There was something I just wanted to refer to there. There's something you specifically said in there about always acting like a church double your size or trying to look towards that.

Mm-hmm (affirmative)

That is something that I have, I think, at one point, I would have been 100% there with you and acted that way. I still think I'm mostly there. But I, also, at times, feel that that can come off as off-putting to some people or almost manipulative or viewing them as a means to an end.

How do you go about doing that in a ... I get where you're coming from, for sure. I'm not trying to criticize, by any means. How do you go about that in a positive, I guess, just a way that to make sure that it's putting a good taste in people's mouth, not a bad taste?

For me, Oliver, it's always been an internal motivator not really external. So, I don't really talk about that to my congregation. I'm just always asking myself ... I've got that person identified or that church identified that is twice the size of my church. That senior pastor, I try to connect with him. I try to get to know who he is. I'm asking myself, when I'm doing a particular thing, I'm asking myself would x pastor, would that guy be doing this? Would this church be doing this. It's really not, it's not so much of a, "Hey, let's act like we're twice the size we are."

For me, it's more of a gauge that I have on everything we're doing. Our systems, our structure, and my personal calender. Like, what kinda things ... How professional, how creative, how well thought out, and how prepared would a church twice our size be? What would they be offering? What would a pastor be doing that was pastoring a church like that? What does my schedule look like? Because if I can't get there, there's zero chance my church gets there. I've gotta be there ahead ... I'm already operating like the pastor of a church twice our size. If I don't get there, there's no chance the church does.

So, for me, maybe I didn't make that really clear in module five's teaching but I'm not really talking so much about telling your church or using that as a teaching point. But it's more of a gauge and an internal motivator.

Mm-hmm (affirmative), mm-hmm (affirmative).

Yeah. I don't think you necessarily were but that does bring clarity to it. Thank you.


Hey, the last thing is on the leadership grid, if I can. This goes to some of the idea of the coalition of the willing. The way it's stated is like the person you're kinda, with the five fold, the person who has the top evangelism gift. Your evangelist, you have the top mercy gift is kind of overseeing team one and two. That type of thing. And you know, the profits over worship.


One of the things that we are talking about, the stage and level we are, is if in some, to some degree, when you go to that far left column, the blacks, and the up and down of the team leaders. What is the relationship between the person who's like the admin person on the team versus that five fold person who oversees that team? Is that some kind of the same person? Is that just kinda where you're at? Just kind of the difference or differentiation between those things. Does that make sense?

I think so. So, hang in here with me. I think, if I'm hearing you right, you're talking about the relationship between the team leader which is those seven teams on the left side, running up and down -

... Yes. Uh-huh -

... Versus the administrative leader of the whole church? Like, the guy at the very top?

Yes and no.

Or are you talking about admin people on each team?

I'm talking the way it's set up is you have your five fold leaders up there. Then, those are color coded, each of them, the team that they would relate to the most. So, the Outreach and WOW teams has a red box around it, as does the evangelist, the person with the mercy gift.

Yeah, what we're really looking -

[crosstalk 00:16:14]... specific ... Yeah, okay, go ahead.

Yeah, I don't know that that's a whole of additional relation between the top five fold and any particular team. Now, they may serve in that same area but really, all we're trying to say is, that across the top, you've got that administrative gift. You've got the pastoring gift, the teaching gift, the recruiter, et. cetera. We just want that person who is the example of that in your church, you know? That person that if you could duplicate them, and put them on more teams, they ought to be at the top of the chart. Then, we want them to be connected.

So, your admin director of your church. Maybe your executive pastor. Or it could be the senior pastor, if you've got admin skills. Everybody who is the leader, team leader, of the seven teams, is connected with that person. And so on, all the way down the line. That's really what that grid is about. It's not really ... There's no additional connection between like team three and the mercy gift. If those colors are there, it just happened to be we ran out of colors or something. We're not trying to coordinate the guys in the top with particular teams. We want the guys on the top connected with everybody with the same gift, throughout the whole matrix.

Mm-hmm (affirmative), mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah. Okay, okay. Yeah. I get that part. So, thank you. That's helpful.

Yeah. Thank you, Oliver.

Thanks, Oliver.

Let me just add this, too. I feel like if there's anybody listening that has not been to that part of the training yet, you haven't gotten to the leadership matrix, that's probably about as clear as mud. Probably three or four of you are like, "I did hear it and it was still as clear as mud."

It's one of those things where a phone call doesn't quite answer it completely. We probably would have done well if we'd had a some kind of visual thing to look at, there. But I hope I answered Oliver's question, there.


The big paradigm shift between that gift in passions matrix and the way that organizations normally run, most organizations are trying to be as efficient with people as possible. We're trying to do that while, at the same time, create as many ministry opportunities as possible in your church. Because, as Jerry mentioned at the top of the call, the more people you have doing ministry, the more people you're gonna reach in your city.

I feel like, as the lay person on the call every month, I've gotta speak to you from the pews, a little bit.  When you're standing in front of the pulpit, you don't talk about numbers. You talk about vision. Everybody sitting there is the only person sitting there that has influence with somebody in their circled influence. That person is God's plan to reach their friend. There's no backup plan. He bet it all on us and our ability to win influence with people and invite them. I think being able to communicate that, if we're doing that, the numbers are gonna take care of themselves. As the first person on the call today said, we gotta space issue. You're gonna have space issues if you can figure out how to communicate that well.

I go to one of the largest churches in the country here in Atlanta. I lead a high school small group. We have a thousand kids that show up on Sunday night to this ministry. I sit down with the team and I hear them saying, "Well, you know, we're doing pretty good."

All I can think is, my daughter's in the eleventh grade. She's gotta thousand kids in her class. She's one of six high schools, public high schools in this county. And there's countless private schools. So, we've effectively reached one class of high school students in this ministry. Is it a big ministry? Yes, it is. Is there room for improvement? Absolutely, there is. That's why I think it's so important that, when we are with the leaders in the church, that we're talking numbers.

Does that make sense?

Yeah, yeah. I'm with you.

We're measuring. We're measuring what we're doing. We're looking at where we are and we're going, "Okay, in two years, we wanna double."

We've gotta plan and a goal but you don't stand in the pulpit and say that. Because it sounds like it's just about numbers. In reality, it is because every one of those numbers is somebody right now that may be heading somewhere other than heaven when they're gone.

Yeah. And we all know what that means without getting too graphic.

Okay. Let's jump to the next one. Great job, Oliver. Great questions.

I think this is Randell.

Hello, this is Randell.

Hey, Randell, what's up?

Hey, I'm enjoying your program. Very beneficial.

In one of your videos, you mention relaunching the church. I feel like that's where I'm at. I have an older church but I have a lot of newer people. Smaller church. We have an old building. I wanna rebrand it. When you relaunched your church, did you move locations or change buildings? Is that necessary?

Good question, Randell. Let me answer that and even more, okay, 'cause I'm very passionate about this idea.

For us, I knew immediately, we couldn't stay where we were. We had to get in a different building. Number one, it was old and falling apart. Secondly, there was just not enough space for what we were gonna do. So, I sort of, kept it under wraps. Another thing that was true of our church is it kinda had a negative, it didn't kind of, it definitely had a negative image in the community. So, I actually wanted to ... We voted, as a congregation, to change the name of our church and start fresh. But I didn't change it there, in that building. I waited to actually put it on a sign and change it in a new location because I wanted the community to see us as a new church. That's how the community saw us. We were in a new location. We were a new church.

So, I had this little dance, Randell, that I was ... I remember one senior guy and I've done his funeral now but back then, he was a leader in the church and he said, "Well, you know, the name of this church, brother, it means something in this community."

It did. It just didn't mean at all what he thought it meant. I remember saying, "Well, Brother Rick, you're right about that."

He thought I meant one thing. And I meant something else.

And God took him home, so, who won that conversation?

He was a good guy but he just didn't have the same philosophy that I had.

Anyways, you know, there was this delicate dance I had with a handful. Not many, but a handful of the old timers. I would make them happy, offstage. I would go to their house and drink coffee. I would talk to them about their grandchildren. I would do all that stuff offstage.

I knew that my future lay in that first time guest coming through the door. So, I would pump them full of vision. I would talk about where we were headed. I was constantly selling the sizzle before the steak ever came out on the plate. We're going somewhere, we're going somewhere.

Then, as I got enough critical mass and I was able to get out of that building, we were able to ... We actually bought a Piggly Wiggly that we converted into a church. That was our first building. We put a new name on the church, Daystar Church. That's when we started making those changes.

So, that's a little bit of it, Randell. If you have a follow up question, maybe I can help you more.

Just my building is really bigger than what I need. I haven't outgrown the building. It's just a old building. It was owned by another denomination. My church bought it before I came there. So, to replace my square footage, there's no way I could afford to do that. I'd have to move to a smaller building. I told my board members the other day, I said, "I've done some figuring. We can't afford to move and we can't afford to stay here. I don't know what we're gonna do."

That's just the way I put it. So, I don't know. That's kinda where I'm at. That's my problem, I guess. I'm just wondering if it's motivational enough for me to promote the idea of another building. And I have talked about that. Most of the people are open to it. It's just a financial issue. So, I'm not sure where I stand on that. If you have any input, I'm certainly open to it.

Yeah. I'd put that in God's hands. If you could find a buyer, if you could be able to get some cash for your building. You know, otherwise, there are a lot of things you can do to the existing building.


You can do different kind of seating that makes the room feel fuller even though it's not full. When we moved into our first building, you know, it could seat 500 but we were only 140, at the time. So, I put out 260 seats, or something like that. Our first Sunday, we had 160 people. Over time, I would add more seats. It just always felt full because I knew that there was a ... You know, Craig Groeschel wrote a book called It. A great book. He talks about something that the churches that are growing have. You can't really define it. It's an "it" factor. Part of that is motivation, excitement, and enthusiasm. You come in a room that you can't even fill a third of the room, it's hard to have the "it" factor. It's hard to feel that way.

So, if you have chairs, you're able to manipulate the space of somewhere. You know, there's other ways to do it. I'd have to be onsite, to walk around with you. But you could look at it and try to be as creative as you can. We're about to take one of our campuses, that we inherited an older building, we're gonna paint the brick on the whole building. Just 'cause it's old looking brick. It's gonna make the whole place look different and better. We're gonna add a glass lobby to it. Just modernize the whole place. Little things like that that are not hundreds of thousands of dollars but can still generate some enthusiasm. I'd start looking like that if I had to stick with that building.


That's one of my options I'd thought about is redoing the outside, putting some more parking in, getting new signs. I didn't know if that would do the job compared to relocating. That's what I'm trying to figure out at this point.

Yeah, if I were where you were, I'd put it in the hands of God. If He opens up a door and we can sell this building, that's great. But I wouldn't sit around all day long and wonder. If something opens up or I pull the trigger. I'm sort of an active guy so I don't wait on the Lord as often and as long as I probably should, to be honest.

I've done some of that, actually. I was praying about it one day. I went downtown and a guy asked me about it and actually made me an offer on the building. But if I took the offer, I would not have been able to build a building anywhere close to the size of what I have. So, that's been my problem. I think you're right. I have been praying about it a lot, asking God. I just pray, "God, if we're supposed to move, you're gonna have to take this building away," so, that's where I'm at.

I appreciate it though. Thanks.

Yes sir, Randell.

Richard, you could speak up to this, having built several church buildings. Give me a per square foot, just estimate on what you're looking at when you go build a new building.

It is, I mean, it's like asking how much does a bag of groceries cost. I mean, it really comes down to finishes and, you know ... If I was doing it, if I was in Randell's shoes, I don't know what city he's in [inaudible 00:27:43], I'd be looking to renovate existing building. Like an old shopping center, something like that. The reason is, it's more cost effective, right off the top. You don't get the surprises that you get when you're developing raw land.

To point out something that you said, too, Jerry, just about how you guys leveraged the disruption that moving a church and changing the name causes. It's gonna be disruptive. It's a painful process. I would always coach churches through this. I'm like, "You're about to put your church in a crises. Don't waste it. Make sure that you leverage what's about to happen here."

I think changing the name and doing a big unveil, as you get into a building, that is a great way to leverage a very painful process. And you know, you've done it a couple of times now, Jerry, several times, where you've renovated or built something. It's painful. You put your people through a lot. You ask them to make sacrifices. If you're gonna do all that, there better be some people you're dragging into Heaven because of it.

Richard, we're about to do a three campus building project. I need to have you come to Alabama and help me with it.

And talk you out of it.

[crosstalk 00:28:50]

It's gonna be multimillion dollar in Madison and Hartselle. And I'm building a building in Uganda that seats 4000 people for our African campus. That's gonna be a video venue, believe it or not. There's lights. It's like a 4000 feet auditorium with windows everywhere 'cause there's no air conditioning. So, I'm gonna have to have, I'll probably be buying the most powerful video projector on the continent of Africa, for this building.

Yeah. You talk about disruption? We're heading into it, brother.

Hey, we're about to get to Rebecca, here. Let me just put one more thought on you, Randell. A question that I'm chewing on right now from a guy that I listen to his podcast. His name's Dan Sullivan. He asked this question, or he made this statement. The problem is not really the problem. How you think about the problem is the problem.

So, here's what I would do. I would challenge you to just spend some time thinking about how you're thinking about this problem. Because what I'm realizing is I have a way to think about solving problems. Sometimes, that's not the right way to do it. So, I'm rethinking about just the way that I think about it. It's been a unique experience to say, "Here's the way my brain works on these things. My problem solving."

Sometimes you realize it's just wrong. Sometimes you need to bring other people in or just look at it from a completely different point of view. Churches are gonna change a lot in the next ten years. Whatever you do next, you need to make sure that you've got your eye on the way that church is going to change in the next ten years.

There's a great book by your former boss and ministry partner, John Maxwell, called Thinking for a Change. If what Richard just said sounds like double talk, you need to think about how you think, that sounds weird, read the book, Thinking for a Change. It'll help you put some practices in place that'll help you to think creatively.


John would tell you and has told me that that book contains a secret sauce. It's what makes him different than every other author that's out there. He's so disciplined about taking time to think.

Okay, I think we've got Rebecca right here. But I'm guessing.

Hello. Yeah, this is Rebecca [inaudible 00:31:01].


Thank you so much.

I have, first, a technical question. Then, questions about going through the modules.

We're officially terrified.

Yeah, I haven't started yet. I've been looking at everything. I think I'm one month in, right now.

I'm not seeing all of the modules. Are they supposed to go away?

You get access to everything. I do. I'm excited. I know the answer to this one.

Okay. Zero through three.

We give you access to everything. Yeah, you get access to everything for a period of time. The period of time, I don't remember what it is now. It's either 15 days or 30 days.

Then, if you don't upgrade after that point, then, you retain access to where you're at, in the program. So, we try to give you enough access to all of those 24toDouble. Let me preface this by saying this, Rebecca. When people get in 24toDouble, the number one question is how do I get more and how do I get it faster. So, we offer some ways for upgrades. About four or five months in, the number one question people are asking is if I don't finish this in two years, it doesn't go away. The answer is no.

Once you're in 24toDouble and you've paid for it, you have it forever. The upgrades allow you to save your church a lot of money on the program. But, in reality, and Jerry, I think, will echo this, this is turning a cruise ship, as Jerry would say, and not a speed boat. It's gonna take time to implement all this. It, definitely, is not designed for you to go all the way through it by yourself and then bring your team into it. 'Cause I will make a prophetic statement. If you do it that way, by the time you get halfway done, you're gonna be overwhelmed.

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

That's not my intention, at all. I mean, I haven't upgraded but that explains why.

Now, we've done a couple of years, at least, of the pre-work, in terms of this is a re-plan, so, we changed the name. Right now, we're mobile. We don't have a building. We meet twice a month in a hotel and then in the homes. It's kind of tricky in terms of implementing things the way the program is set up. Plus, we have about 40 to 45 people in regular attendance. So, the pool for volunteers is very small.

Yeah, so, I wanted to go through assimilation which has been, historically, our problem. And, also, the small groups because we, once you assimilate people, you want to plug them in. Right now, the life of the church is happening, mostly, outside of a building. So, those are the constraints that I'm working with. I totally want to go through the process. When I think of the different roles for each one of the teams, as you can imagine, I don't have enough people to fill the roles. So, those are all constraints that I know. Right now, I'm thinking is this the time to do this or should I wait to grow a little bit more?

Okay. Well, thanks for calling. Let me see if I can answer that.

I think, Rebecca, that this is the time because the smaller the church, the easier it is to affect change. The earlier on that you begin, the easier it is to set your course in the right direction. As the church gets larger and you get farther in, people start, well, they buy into whatever direction you're going. So, you've kinda sold them on one path and then 24toDouble changes the direction. Then, you've got another battle to fight.

I think, as it's small, like Richard was saying earlier, it's how you think about it. So, what I encourage, and we've had churches as small as 25 to successfully do 24toDouble. When you're at that level, I remember the church of 25, it was $200 a month, back then, because it was an in person type thing. The pastor just tried to get $2400 out of 25 people so that he could pay for the whole thing. He got it all. Then, there was an older lady who had $100 she wanted to give. He said, "You know what? We've collected everything."

She was so upset that she wouldn't get to give to it 'cause this thing's gonna change our church and we're gonna be so different. He had given. He took his $100 back so the lady could give. She forced him to do it.

I tell you that story, Rebecca, because sometimes when you've gotta smaller group, it's easier to create a camaraderie and us versus the world. I did it with my church. I started with about 70 people, it might've been 65, depending on what Sunday you looked at it. But it was us versus the world. I mean, I was talking about how big the need was. How ridiculous it is for us to try something like this. It's gonna have to be God. You know that old phrase that says you need to try things that if God doesn't show up, you're gonna look ridiculous. For you, it may be this thing.

I would just encourage you not to just internalize that or to just struggle with that in your heart. But put that out there to the people. You know, tell them, "I've been on the phone with these guys. I consider, maybe we shouldn't do this. But, you know what? The Lord may return next year. We can't wait. There are people that we're called to reach. So, I'm making the move that we can't wait. I wanna challenge you to make the move that you can't wait. It's time for you to give more. It's time for you to serve more. It's time for you to try more."

That's the way I would do it. I'd just be as transparent as I could with my team. As far as like how much of this can we do? Well, you let your team answer that. You start in module one and when we start talking about first impressions, you know? Let's see how much volunteerism you get. By the time we're farther along, maybe you can't do that. You can't do the next module. You know, I had a church who told me they were on 36toDouble. You know, they just said, "We just couldn't do it fast enough," that's completely fine.

But I would put it in the hands of the people and trust God. Maybe God, you know, works a miracle in their hearts and in your community. That's my approach, as a smaller church, is that we can't afford to wait. The revival and the need for revival is now. That's the way I would go, Rebecca.

Mm-hmm (affirmative). Okay. All right. Thank you.

Thank you.

Thanks for calling.

All right. We got three more. All right. I think this is ... I'm not sure who this is.

This is Aaron Kirkpatrick from Boulevard Church of Christ in Oklahoma.

How ya doing?

Hey, guys.

So, I've gotta couple of questions for you. I had a member kinda stumble on this. I've been waiting on it for a year. He stumbled upon it and offered to pay for it. We found it separately. We're super excited about it.

I have been going through the first steps of familiarizing myself with it as much as I can. In the process, I binged, I think, about 15 of the sessions. I drank from the fire hose.

I hear ya.

Now, I've got my elders, I've got my deacons on board. We're gonna start meeting once a month to go through the modules together. But I gotta tell you, 15 modules in, my first question is I'm struggling to figure out exactly where to start because I know you guys said that the way you implement the teams, like, with your first impressions team, for instance. You just said module one. Y'all said, actually, start with your follow up team which is farther down the road. I've not been able to figure out, where do I start? Like, what's our first step? If we say month one, we're committing to this, what do we do?

Well, I mean, month one we're gonna be talking about who you are, as a church. Clarifying your purpose and your meaning. What's special about your church, Aaron.

Listen, I'm a kindred spirit. I can just hear how you're talking. You're kinda cut out of the same cloth that I am. The mistake I would make, if I were where you are, is I would get way too far ahead and I would assume that people could adapt, could adopt the change quicker than they can. I am forever overestimating how quickly people can do everything from driving to making a decision to accepting new information. I forever overestimate people's abilities.

If I could just speak to what I'm ... I'm making a little bit of a judgment on you, Aaron, because I think I hear my own voice in you. Just take it slow and don't assume that those elders or, certainly not, extended leader team, leadership of your church, can adopt this change so rapidly. I always encourage people to take it, module zero, one, two, three. Just work it month by month by month. And take it slow.

Now, if you've gotta really, really large church, and you've got some really strong, just powerful ministries that you don't wanna upset, you might take it a little bit more of a cafeteria style approach. But that's very rare. Most of the time, I encourage people to take it just from the beginning. Work straight through.

So, do you recommend, module zero is just the teaching you did on big events. I know, that was like, basically, it was split into two 'cause it's a part of one of the other modules. The one I think was like an hour and a half. So, split that one off. Do you actually start with zero though or do you start with one? I got confused going through it 'cause I felt like that one was like, "We want this to be a stand alone teaching. Let's put it where it's easily accessible."


You know, module zero is really to sell the program. To sell it in the hearts of the people. You know, you're bought in. You've got somebody that's already bought in. That, literally, bought it.


But don't ... Yeah. So, just don't assume that the other team members are bought in. They might wanna know, "Hey, what's this thing all about?"

If you start them in module one and you skip zero, they might not like it.


The other thing is, we through the little big events teaser in there just to give people a picture of some of the best and most exciting part of this. You know, we designed this thing to have low hanging fruit up front, so, the things that really produce the most results and are most eye catching would be done up front. Big events being one of those.

Again, I'd probably start right there at module zero. Just don't assume. You don't want anything ... Change is so disruptive anyways. I just don't wanna get one month ahead or skip another month, and then, kinda blow the whole thing up because you know how people are, man. You're in the people business. They'll react in such a strange way. I'd just try not to get too fast and get too far ahead of them.

Sure. Okay. That's good. I'll start with module zero and we'll just pace it out from there.

Second question I've got is this one. So, I'm in the Church of Christ. I know you guys said you've had COCs come through this program before.


So, we don't have a denominational structure. We're each, independently, kind of run by elders and deacons. With the five fold leadership model, my one, like the one big flashing warning sign that I'm seeing is that that has the potential to be really disruptive. Some of our folks believe in a deep seated biblical leadership model, or whatever.

How do you navigate that? Or how have churches navigated that where part of what I may be telling my elders and deacons who have felt like they have a lot of administrative oversight over everything, so say, "Actually, your gift is encouragement. Why don't you just do that now?"


I try to give a lot of cover for that when I say that we're theologically alike.


You know, you just have to believe in that God likes different gifts to get along with each other. Essentially, if you believe that God put gifts in people's hearts and that those gifts are meant to weave together, literally like a piece of cloth. That's about all the theology we demand.

I haven't been down in the weeds, really, with the Church of Christ churches that have been onboard with us. I don't really know how those leaders handled that. I do know that the nomenclature was very different, even from what we call the pastor or senior leader. Some of those churches had a different nomenclature. The best I could really do for you there is if these people have oversights, there's no reason they can't continue to have oversight. But we want them to have focus on their strength. You know, their area of most giftedness. So, that's probably the way I would go.

I'm just really careful not to throw out the baby with the bathwater. I don't wanna just destroy and disrupt what has always been there and has always been established. So, if you can continue to ... If you can take onboard the spirit of this spiritual gift model, and then, meet it somewhere in the middle with the old structure, then, you probably keep those old [inaudible 00:45:13] happy and still move forward.

That's just one of those things that you just gotta be the leader. And you gotta figure that out.

Okay. Play it fast and loose. Got it.


You might talk to some guys down in the Birmingham area. Homewood Church of Christ. Now, it's been a while and I don't know what the turnover is like in that church. But it might be worth a phone call to them. They're one of the churches that drove up when we were doing it in person. That's probably been eight years ago. But Homewood Church of Christ is one that I worked closely with.

Awesome. I will give them a call. Thank you.

Okay. Thanks, Aaron.

Okay. We got, I think, Joshua up here next.

Yeah, hi. Thanks for the call, guys. I'm up here in Tacoma, Washington.

Part of it's on raising up volunteers. I think, I've looked through the process a little bit. We've gone through the first two modules. But just on getting people involved and raising up volunteers. I have my staff going through it with me. I do have something I've called a Dream Team. It's people that I've chosen that could be potential leaders in church. Some of them are, kinda, leading.

The first question, I have, really, two questions. What's the recommended way to get people involved in 24toDouble, that are beyond, maybe, the staff?


The way I would recommend the staff is that ... Are you talking about your paid staff, Joshua? Or are you talking about volunteer staff?

No. I have my paid staff watching it. But I'd like to get kind of some of the leaders in my church. Then, I have an advisory council which is kinda like an elder or deacon board.  [inaudible 00:47:06] my Dream Team which are kinda more of our lay leaders involved.


So, again, what I'd try to do in module zero, and some of the other ... We made a module, Richard, you could probably help me with the name of it. The module we specifically, the little pitch we specifically made for leaders and like, church boards. Do you remember what that's called?

It's on the team meeting page.

So, if you go back and re-watch that, I give you a lot of preaching material, Joshua, that, like I said earlier, I think I was talking to Oliver, I preach everything. I don't announce. I don't promote. I preach it.

Man, I would put that in the sermon. You know, the cause of Christianity is dying in America. There are less people, per capita, attending on a given Sunday than ever before in American history. We've gotta change something. You know, Christ is returning. This is how we do it.

Then, I would take a team night. You know, some groups call it Team 24 or they just call it 24toDouble. We're gonna double our impact in 24 months. I would have a night a month. Just encourage everybody who wants to see this church reach its fullest potential to be there. So, that's your board, that's your staff, that's your leaders, that's anybody who's not a leader yet. But you capture their heart because you're trying to create a movement. You're trying to build momentum. So, for me, it's as many people as I can get onboard at the very beginning as possible. 

Yeah. Thank you for that.


Also, my follow up question was just about getting leaders involved. I kinda perused through some of the different modules. I didn't quite see. Do you guys go into, in one of the modules, how the process of actually raising up leaders? Like, what is gonna be our volunteer pipeline? Or our leadership pipeline. How do we do that?

Well, it's all through the whole process. All the modules, they kinda daisy chain like hands off to the next, to the next. But, essentially, from a big picture, it is that the first thing you look at when someone walks through the door is that's my next volunteer. They might not even be a member yet. But you start immediately trying to on-ramp them into the Pastor's Breakfast. In the Pastor's Breakfast, you immediately start telling them you have a way to help them find their destiny. That connects them to a ministry leader. When they've filled out the Gifts and Passions Profile, the ministry leader is notified. That ministry leader recruits them. Then, we begin to train them.

Now, we've got training for every ministry team, of course, month by month. But we also have Spiritual Gift Training that's available for you to download and train people in their spiritual gifts. So, you find where that fits for you. For me, I'll do a whole series. Last January, I did the whole month of January teaching on the spiritual gifts and pushing people to the Pastor's Breakfast to get spiritual gift tested.

For us, it's who we are. It's our culture. It's not like a component that we're gonna raise up leaders. But we immediately push you in there. They're being trained both on how to do their ministry, functionally, and on what their spiritual gift is. So, that's it. It's really not one module, Joshua. It's kinda interwoven throughout the whole process.

So, just paraphrasing, you push people to the Pastor's Breakfast where they have their Spiritual Gifts test. Then, you connect them with a ministry staff leader. And then, every month you have a ministry training? Then, you said [inaudible 00:50:56]

Well, that's on you. Yeah. You kinda determine that yourself.

When I say every month, I mean the 24 months. The modules. The 24 modules. They train. So, there's gonna be one on worship and you wanna have all your worship team there and they get trained in that. As Richard said, when you buy into this program, you've got it for a lifetime. So, you can always pull it up anytime you want. Just sit down your new members of your worship team to watch that. So, there's that going on. That's available all the time. You just kinda determine, at your own schedule, how that best fits your team.

Yeah. Good. Thank you.

Also, just lastly, I did need to book my [inaudible 00:51:36] call. That was just more of a practical thing. But thank you guys for that.

Yeah, thanks, Josh.

Jessica's gonna send you an email with the team page on it, too, 'cause I didn't know what it was right off the top of my head.

Okay, thank you.

Richard, I do have a tight time frame. How are we doing on -

... We got a ... We wanna finish the way we started. Jeff Hall was our last one. He was the first caller today, too.

All right. The first shall be the last and the last shall be the first. Let's hear it, Jeff.

Actually, I was just calling, just chiming in just to the lady who was on the fence, there. I can tell you that we started with 65 people. Our church was over 10 years old and just wasn't growing. We pulled together the coalition of the willing. We started 24toDouble. We rearranged our front end. Which we call it but basically the WOW team and started the Pastor's Breakfast. Within one year, we saw just under a 50% growth. The second year, we went over 60%. We still, actually, haven't fully implemented all the modules. We're just now getting into setting up our teams where we have the five fold and working the matrix.

So, I would say that, if you don't have a system, if nothing else, 24toDouble gives you a system to work with, even with your own theology.


Well, thanks for that, Jeff. We like to hear those testimonies.

For sure.

Okay. Thanks, Jeff. Hey, I guess that's it, Jerry. Do you have any parting words?


Guys, we're heading into the Easter season, so, I'm praying for you. I pray, my team gets together, we pray like crazy over Easter. We pray for the churches in our city. We really, really pray for the 24toDouble churches. So, I hope you know, you are a partner with us. We feel like we're brothers and sisters in this thing together.

Come visit Daystar Church sometime. We would love to host you. Have you on a weekend sometime. Pastors, take a Sunday off. Come visit Daystar. Don't preach every week. You'll run yourself to death.

So, yeah. Love ya and I hope I'll see you soon.

Thanks so much. If you're listening to this on the podcast, you can find out everything you wanna know about 24toDouble at That's Thanks. We'll catch you on the next Q & A.

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